“Did Yahshua Pre-exist?”

The writer, Carlo Tognoni, was answering a question from another person on an internet forum. I am publishing it with some editing because it coincides pretty much with my own beliefs. If it differs from yours, I do not think that this is a salvation issue anyway. Let’s just continue to study and seek Yahweh’s revelation. Frank Brown 

Actually I have shown you MANY TIMES very, very clear Scriptures in which Yahweh HIMSELF repeatedly said He is ONE Yahweh, and that there is NO OTHER Mighty One with and beside HIM ALONE (Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:39-40; Psalm 83:18; Isayah 45:5-6; etc.), and in which Yahshua HIMSELF said that HIS Father, Yahweh, is THE ONLY TRUE MIGHTY ONE, and HIS MIGHTY ONE (Yahchanan / John 17:5; 20:17; Revelation 3:12; etc.), but you do NOT believe Them!

I am NOT at odds with the Words of the Messiah, Who NEVER said that He pre-existed with the Father (unless in HIS Mind, and Foreordained Plan, and in His "loins", as to say), but I am at odds with YOUR OWN ERRONEOUS INTERPRETATIONS of some Scriptures, that usually "trinitarians" and "dualitarians" try to use to support their WRONG beliefs.

For example, you are using Yahchanan (John) 17:5, to try to support your belief and preconceived idea of the pre-existence of Yahshua.

Would it be NOT "very, very strange" that Yahshua said very, very clearly, in Verses 3-4, "And this is Eternal Life, that they might know You THE ONLY TRUE MIGHTY ONE, and Yahshua The Messiah, Whom You has sent. I have glorified You on the Earth: I have finished the Work which You gave Me to do", so clearly indicating that HIS Father is THE ONLY TRUE MIGHTY ONE, and so He was NOT a Pre-Existent Mighty One with His Father.

Yahchanan (John) 17:5 states, "And now, O Father, glorify You Me with Your Own Self with the Glory which I had with You before the world was."

Was this Glory as the Second Person of the "Trinity", or a Co-Equal Mighty One with Yahweh, or is there something here that many people miss?

Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, "Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest entered into the Set Apart Place every year with blood of others; For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world He has appeared to put away sin by the Sacrifice of Himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26).

Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the Mind or Plan of Almighty Yahweh.

This is akin to Yahchanan (John 1:1) which speaks of the Very Word of The Mighty One being with The Mighty One in the Beginning. This Spoken Word or Plan of Yahweh existed throughout the eons of time. From the beginning of Time, Yahweh had Yahshua's Sacrifice in His Plan for all humankind, for it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25).

1 Kepha (Peter) 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying, "Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation (conduct) received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of The Messiah, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".

Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a Person or Being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed Him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through Him (Hebrews 1:1-2).

It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would allow the Disciples to share in this Glory (John 17:24), and then He in turn mentions the foundation of the world.

The Disciples would indeed share in the Glory of the impalement by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's Glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian or dualitarian being.

The Glory that Yahshua had was as the slain Lamb of Yahweh, in the Mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that Glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, Eternal Life. This is why Yahshua began in Yahchanan (John) 17:1-2 by saying, "These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up His eyes to Heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You: As You has given Him Power over all flesh, that He should give Eternal Life to as many as You has given Him'".

Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of Eternal Life by Yahweh glorifying Him as the Ultimate Sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn Glorifying the Father.

Another favorite verse of pre-existence proponents is Yahchanan (John) 17:24. It reads, "Father, I will that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My Glory, which You has given Me: for You loved Me before the foundation of the world".

It would seem that the Father and the Son had a loving relationship before the Earth was created. Understanding this Verse in that way leads to complications in understanding Ephesians 1:3,4.

Shaul (Paul) says, "Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master Yahshua The Messiah, Who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly Places in The Messiah: According as He had chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be Set Apart and without blame before Him in love".

Using the same line of thinking as in Yahchanan (John) 17:24, we would be led to believe that all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the Earth was created.

BOTH of these Verses pertain to Yahweh's Foreordained Plan, NOT to pre-existent beings.

1 Kepha (Peter) 1:20 says, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".

Why was NOT the "pre-existent Yahshua" made manifest back in Old Testament times? Because He did NOT exist at that time, except in the Foreordained Plans of Yahweh.
Other references such as Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 reveal Yahweh's Plan as well.

(Excerpts taken from the Scriptural Study "Did Our Savior Pre-Exist?" by John V. Cordaro).

YES, "Just believe the words of the Messiah and don't over-think it"... HE said VERY, VERY CLEARLY that HIS FATHER, YAHWEH, IS THE ONLY TRUE MIGHTY ONE (Yahchanan / John 17:3), AND HIS MIGHTY ONE (Yahchanan / John 20:17; Revelation 3:12), and NOT TO HAVE BEEN A MIGHTY ONE WITH HIM!

Mattithyah (Matthew) 23:8-11 -
But be not you called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even The Messiah; and all you are Brethren. And call no man your Father upon the Earth: for ONE is your Father, Which is in Heaven. Neither be you called Masters: for one is your Master, even The Messiah. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

May Yahweh Open our minds, ears, and eyes, to understand It!
In The Name of HIS Beloved Son, Yahshua The Messiah,
Carlo Tognoni
The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
www.byt-yhwh.org ~